You write one very important sentence “One reality is that most of the Greek population feels as strongly about this as does the population of Macedonia”. But Im not seeing your or anyone from EU bother with this. Maybe it is time to do something about the changing that reality. Your views, thoughts and after all your purpose has find very easy way to be broadcast on Macedonian media (printed or electronic) but I have never ever heard anything about that on Greek media. I don’t know why is that but anyway it is also essential. Maybe it is time to try that one. Of course it is perfectly clear to me that greek people are working in various EU commissions, bodies etc..etc…and there influence is huge but if we want solution someone from EU have to do something in Greece.
Mr.Knaus, bilateral problem can not be contrary to international norms and the right of self-identification, it is impossible. Let me remind you what is stated in UN UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS
Article 15.
* (1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
* (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.
If we are solving the problems just by way of “political power” then we should forget all small countries and “small” people.
Now, you give me an argument that Macedonia is a region in 3 different countries, which is true. But tell me what nationality are the people who are living in Greece (macedonian region). Are we calling them Greeks or Macedonians? Which nationality has all those people living in Pirin region? of course they are Greeks / Bulgarians.
One Bavarian is German although he is living in the region with the name Baern.
There is region in Belgium called Luxembourg and we have country Luxembourg
The Greek part of Macedonia is only a region but in Rep.of Macedonia it is the name of the country and after all no Macedonian has say something against Greeks who are calling themselves Greek Macedonians.
Or the Macedonian case is something special and this entire examples is not the same???? Very simple difference is Macedonian/Bulgarian/and Greek or Greek Macedonian.
I find very difficult to swallow the idea of “citizens of the Republic of Macedonia – Vardar”. I can only imagine what one “Macedonian” will feel on some border where the custom officer ask him/her what nationality he/she is….the answer would be Im citizen of RoM-Vardar…ok,ok, but what nationality you have ….hmmmm well that’s it: my nationality is CITIZEN. Tell me what is wrong here? You have several employee in your office with various nationality ask someone from them what they will feel like if they don’t have a nationality and someone for example who is Turkish ….have to answer that his/her nationality is Citizen of Turkey. We are all citizens of some country….but those citizens has names…Germans,Austrians,Greeks,Australians…..

The part about Alexander or the renaming the subjects, products, roads etc..etc….is so stupid that it doesn’t deserve my comment. But that hysteria also begin in Greece in the early 90’ties the Macedonians just play childish now.

Now, about the reality. Yes your thoughts are right that probably will be isolation but mine are much further. I’m expecting in second part of 2011 to begin with shy “shooting” between Albanians and Macedonians because EU doesn’t want to solve this and in the end the high prize will be paid by some no names Albanians and Macedonians who don’t mean anything in Brussels bureaucracy ….it is nothing special just some few shed blood. Then it will come the big savoir from Brussels with a signing paper if he get lucky if not, I, you and every EU citizen will have to pay from our salary to some General (with 10 000 EUR monthly net salary) who will be at the tampon zone between Albanians and Macedonians …and here we go again days become months, months become year, year become years. (Bosna and Kosovo..still EU forces)
The reality is that it is putted to the Macedonians exactly like this:
1. Change your country name – Vardar,North,Upper,Skopje
2. Change your identity to “Citizens”
3. we will think about the language
Then you can join us in rich EU where milk and honey are everywhere.

And finally the reality is that like it or not, deliberately or not, consciously or unconsciously we the Europeans slowly but for sure are implicated the Fascist doctrine of the understanding of the word “nationalism”. see Fascism and the meaning of nationalism . And how do I know that? The very latest Report of the EU for the F.Y.R.M on 82 pages there are not a single word used like MACEDONIAN PEOPLE, MACEDONIAN LANGUAGE…instead it is stated people of FYRM, the state language and other dubious words !!! In comparison with the Report for Croatia ….there are at least 70 times used the word Croat or Croatian…Report of Albania ….over 80 times used the word Albanians and Albanian. Congratulation but for me which I deeply regret, the only difference between EU (today politic toward Macedonia) and Hitler are that EU are not putting them in Concentration camps! From today my wife’s parents who are Macedonians are officially CITIZENS with a STATE language.
Maybe your organization is unfortunately putted in such a position that you are obligated to follow EU politic I don’t know, and personally I don’t blame you if is that the case…hey if I was a young person not connected with Macedonia I will never ever jeopardize my job to help some misery, small, poor country with a lot of Pride. The only difference that I would made is trying not to “preach” them that it is only the name…I will leave them alone in there’s dark future of isolation and unrest. At least by not “preaching” them I m not going to participate of the fascistic request of some Europeans.
But if you still want to jeopardize your job just to help those Citizens look for the solution in solving the “nation” issue by Greek side…once you do that you got the problem solved. And you have many arguments about that with Greeks ..you are the one with the Asses in your hands.
Best regards and who know maybe our roads will bring us to meet each other.
Best regards,

ESI has no problem at all with the Macedonian language – the reason we have no language button for “Macedonian” (or Slovenian) is simply that we have very few translations of any of our reports into those languages and nobody in our team who can write this language well enough. I speak the former Serbo-Croatian, as do many members of our team. As do most Macedonian-speakers, I noted.

The serious question you raise is: what is the “core” of the problem? Would Athens be satisfied simply with a change of name? Or are the proposals more radical and cannot ever be satisfied? Is ESI wasting its time trying to find arguments that might persuade both sides?

I am not sure we gain much by speculating what Greece (or Macedonia) “really wants”. The only way to find out is to negotiate. One reality is that most of the Greek population feels as strongly about this as does the population of Macedonia. So even those Greek politicians who want this solved yesterday rather than tomorrow, who in private conversation have no problems at all to refer to their neighbour as “Macedonia”, face real (political) constraints.

Should Macedonians care about those? Perhaps not. But if they want to see a solution, they should.

I know that many Macedonian politicians and citizens would in fact be prepared to accept a modification in the name of the country a la “Republic of Macedonia – Vardar” if this would end this dispute. There is nothing humilitating in accepting that indeed there is a part of geographic and historical Macedonia today in three different states, after all. Nor is there anything humilitating to refer to the (multiethnic) citizens of this state as the “citizens of the Republic of Macedonia – Vardar”: after all those citizens include Macedonians, Albanians, Turks, vlachs, Serbs, Roma, etc …

What IS humiliating and unacceptable for everyone living in Macedonia is for Greece to go further: to press for a monopoly on the use of the adjective “Macedonian”. Clearly the only way one can refer to the language spoken by Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia is as “Macedonian language”. There is only one Macedonian language in any case. And clearly the only way one can refer to the ethnic Macedonians (as opposed to citizens of the state) is as “Macedonians.” If, as the Greek argument on the name of the country implies, there are today three Macedonias (Vardar, Aegean and Pirin) then neither of them can have a monopoly on the use of the adjective either. So Macedonian wine can come from Monastir as well as from Thessaloniki. Will Greece accept this vital distinction? I am not sure. Perhaps you are right. I have signals – form talking to people in Greece – that suggest different answers. If you are right, then the conflict has already become unsolvable and will never be solved.

Why, one might objective, is an outsider even trying to make such distinctions? Why bother? Why not simply do one of two things: either blame the whole conflict on one side (as many in the EU would agree, “it is clearly all Greek’s fault”); or say that both sides are typically Balkanic, behaving irrationally, and the whole conflict is hopeless as a result (“why do the Macedonians insist on provoking the Greeks by naming everything after Aleksander … does this not show that they are not interested in any solution either?”). The majority opinion in the EU today combines both of these things: to blame this unnecessary conflict all on Greece, only to note in the next sentence that what makes this unsolvable is the irrationality of both sides.

So why care? Because the simple reality that we are both aware of is that the current stand-off threatens the interests of the whole region. We are dangerously close to people just giving up on the conflict altogether. That would mean that Macedonia faces an Armenian future: an isolated place, which will see even more of its citizens try to leave, with no external anchor. This is very bad for Macedonians, for Greeks and for the Balkans as a whole.

In any case, perhaps this is all just a waste of time. Perhaps you are right, and both sides’ red lines are simply incompatible. Perhaps we all do better to deal with simple issues where the solution is clear, such as territorial disputes between Greece and Turkey in the Aegean, the Kurdish issue, or the stand-off between Kosovo and Serbia …

I think it is premature to conclude this just yet.

First of all I appreciate your effort in finding solution for this “stupid” problem. Your way of thinking are very similar with mine and that is finding solution and not going back and looking for the ones who created this at first place. But it seems to me that either you don’t understand or don’t want to understand the CORE of this problem. And it aint the name. Im very pessimist that this problem will be solve in the near future.The requirement of the Greeks are so radical that makes this problem unsolvable. Im very convince that even if the Macedonian government accept this purpose (just changing the name) the Greek side will refused and find out new additional requirements. Don’t believe me? Then try to speak with them. At the beginning was that putting the word “Macedonia” as part of the state name directly means that that poor,small country have territorial aspiration to one bigger NATO and EU member country. Sound absurd, don’t you think? but the greek argument was exactly this !!! The greek requirements for changing the personal identity in 21 Century are not unacceptable for every normal,moderate human individual …and not just to the “proud Macedonians”. Everyone has right to their self- identification ….a thing that is forgotten by the leading politician in EU. Why I think that someone is hiding behind Greece? How come the other world player USA,China,India, Canada, Russia has solved this problem?Im thinking logical …the leader of EU if they wanted they would probarly solved this stupid problem long time ago (and more recently when we gave to Greece big amount of money)….but here comes the political and for all most economical links with Greece in which Macedonia has no chance to compare. Who the hell wants small,poor country? Here comes your part as member of Think-Tank organization (if may say that) in which Im sorry but I think that your going to the wrong direction and you are speaking to the wrong partner. Try to communicate with Greek representatives and convince them to give up their insane demands regarding identity issue,solve their issue you got the problem solved ! And please when meeting with germans,austrians,french ect..ect…just try to explain the real CORE of the problem …that would be nice and helpful. You see even on your web portal you have option to translate on Croat,Serbian, Bosnian,Montenegrin but you don’t have Macedonian Language hmm I wonder why (though I know the answer).

Bitte verstehen Sie dies nicht als eine persönliche Kritik sondern verstehen Sie es als eine Möglichkeit für einen Vorschlag zur Lösung dieses Problems für die Zukunft.

Sie wie auch ich sind junge Menschen die den Balkan modernisiert und ohne Altlasten sehen wollen. Nur glaube ich, dass nicht die Mazedonier diesen Prozess bremsen sondern ein EU-Staat und das seit nahezu 30 Jahren.
Grüße,

A quick response to some of the many other (mainly Macedonian) writers here. Yes, by all means, it is your right to insist on Macedonia’s name. But in fact, currently, the official name of your country in the World Bank, the IMF, the UN and the EU is FORMER YUGOSLAV REPUBLIC of Macedonia. This must be one of the silliest names in history, and giving it up for REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA – VARDAR or some such in the same fora (the WB, the IMF, the UN, the EU) can hardly be called a defeat or a denial of one’s identity. There is nothing insulting in the second name.

Note that in our proposal the idea of this name being used erga omnes internationally would enter into force the day Macedonia joins the EU and following a referendum on whether to join the EU. So then let a big national debate begin: whether to make this compromise or join a wider Union. Some of the people on this page might then argue against it. Others might think that the main priority is to make the Macedonian state-building project a success …. that little is gained in terms of national dignity if a country with more than 20 percent unemployment and a very low per capita income sees its best people emigrate or accept Bulgarian passports. But this debate would come then, and the choice would be real.

What we propose is that for now, this debate need not take place. Until Macedonia really has a choice between full accession and this (painful) compromise, we do not see it embracing a change of the name. And the main reason is not only principled opposition but the uncertainty what all of this would mean for other issues: say, the name of the country changes to Republic of Macedonia Vardar tomorrow erga omnes. What guarantee is there for Macedonia that a future Greek government will not veto the opening of chapters in the EU negotiations 5 years from now? None.

Note one more thing about our proposal. We only talk about the name of the country. Macedonia will not accept a change in the name of its language or the identity of its people. At the UN, for instance, under this proposal nothing will change: there the name of the people is today “citizens of the FYROM” and it will become “citizens of the Republic of Macedonia Vardar”, while the language which is today called Macedonian will still be called Macedonian then.

Given all of this, I find it hard to see how a support for this proposal would be a step back for any proud citizens of Macedonia, even for those who in 8 years in a referendum on EU accession OR entering in force of the constitutional amendment would vote against the EU.

It is the best possible deal which is also realistic. The alternative is continued isolation for one of the poorest countries in Europe, which deserves better.

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.”

Joseph Goebbels

Now lets keep it really simple. There has been a lot of repeating of various views, thoughts, analyses and whatnots regarding this issue, that anybody without extensive expirience about this problem would be lost in the quagmire.

So let’s put all the politics and history aside and focus on the problem. Greece feels intimately connected to the name Macedonia, and they have a region called Macedonia within their country. But unless Greece decides to change its name to Macedonia, I really don’t see how we have a problem at all.

For example:

1. Here’s a list of various cities called Paris:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090401151656AAoJdOL

And nobody has a problem with that.

2. There is a region in France called Bretagne (Brittany):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brittany

And I don’t see GB or France blocking each other entering whichever multinational organization.

3. There’s even a hotel in Athens called Grande Bretagne (Great Britain):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grande_Bretagne

So it appears even Greeks have absolutely no issues whatsoever regarding such nomenclature.

So I believe our position should be such. Total refusal of any talks (or negotiations) on the matter. Absolutely ridding ourselves of that sad, sad reference name mentioned above. Even at the cost of our entering the EU and/or NATO. If Greece has a problem with our naming our country and ourselves Macedonia and Macedonians, then let it be their problem, not ours. And in the meantime pushing a large and aggressive diplomatic campaign and lobbying all over the world, promoting our stands and points of view.

Sadly this is and has been beyond the capabilities of our politicians and diplomats (which we keep reelecting for some reason) for some time now. So the current position of the world (that gives a damn) toward this issue is pretty much reflected in this article. I guess the need for us to change the name of our country (nationality, language, etc.) has been repeated sufficient number of times to become a normal, everyday thing. As if the problem is shared, not unilateral.

The Macedonians will NEVER change the name, not for any international organization like NATO, and least for the labile and nationalist European Union.

As a commentator above said, they haven’t changed their name under 500 years slavery by the ottomans, and they will surely not change it and erase themselves just because a failed (EU member) state wanted.

There is only one solution to this problem – everybody to admit the truth – that this greek “problem” is stupid and pure nonsense.

Sir, you went to Macedonia, not to “FYROM”. The second word is meaningless and there is no country named as such. Please be appropriate in your discussion.

A name is a name for external use so that others can call you what you are. There is no such a thing as “internal name” and “external name”. The idea is ridiculous on its face.

Simply there is no compromise with our name and identity! The proopsal put forth here is neither sound nor realistic. It takes an unenforcable demand by Greece and pretends to give a process of its implementation.

Rather than continue this charade, the right thing to do is face that Macedonian people and nation exist without any ifs or buts. Greece must face that there is a northern neighbor called Macedonia. That’s where the problem lies — in Greece — and that;s where the soplultions need to be directed.

I will try to explain reasons for the “dispute” (I call it “the problem that Greece has with Macedonia”). I would stick to facts:

Have you at all researched international law, conventions, agreements, etc?
I am not an expert, but have read somewhere an article stating this:
A country that possesses at least 5% of a region/territory, may choose the name of that region for its name if no other country has already taken that name. So, we have the Right to the name even lawfully, let alone justly. And yet, we do not object to Greece naming its northern part Macedonia.

Now I also know this:
1. Republic of Macedonia named itself in 1944. And that’s only because prior to this year it had been occupied for centuries, but the people always referred to themselves as Macedonians who live in Macedonia, only have no independent state. And they fought for it and won it.
2. the region of North Greece was renamed to Macedonia in the 1980s. Prior to this, the name Macedonia was forbidden in Greece. Why?! It’s a matter of feelings connected to their “greatest enemy” in history – Phillip II of Macedon
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demosthenes).
After WWII, they wanted to conduct ethnic cleansing. Most of the Macedonian people were either killed during the civil war, or deported to Uzbekistan, Poland, Romania, …. This was done behind the screen that they were “communists”. Their land and properties were seized and given (actually left to be taken by “turning the heads aside”) to Greek colonists who came to live there after Greece made an agreement to exchange population with Turkey.

Remnants of this politics still persevere in Greece, as Macedonians still living there are not recognised as minority; our Macedonian language that they speak is forbidden – they suffer reprimands if they do (various administrative obstacles) –
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_%28political_party%29.

Bottom line, there are deeper reasons for the “dispute” than just the name; Greece would not stop at the name. They actually have had scenarios, in agreement with the former Serbian president Slobodan Milosevic, to erase Republic of Macedonia from the map. And whilst at it, our ancestors, as close as our grandparents/parents, fought for this country and its name; and we will not change it for the prospective of becoming a member of any organisation. If that organisation doesn’t want us with our own name, why on Earth would we even want to be their members?

In a word: people in Skoje are called Macedonians and they are not prepared to make any “concessions” so as to erfase themselves from the map in order to join some failed union.

It is incredible that this European Union is defering to Greece’s racist policies — a coutnry which stole 450 BILLION euro and threatens to break apart the EU.

Would you do away with the German nation if Greece demanded it to enter some club?! No more Germany tomorrow, but you are members of a union just because Greece wants that, imagine that.

- Prior to the security council the prime minister protests to be named else than our constitutional name, and says “ the Republic of Macedonia will in no circumstances be prepared to accept the ”former Yugoslav republic of Macedonia” as the name of the country” in a letter to the Secretary General of the UN dated April 6th 1993 ( doc. No. s/25541)
- http://www.un.org/Docs/journal/asp/ws.asp?m=S%2F25541

- In the resolution 817 of the UN Security council dated April 7th 1993, is written:
The Security Council recommends to the General assembly that the state whose application is contained in Document s/25147 be admitted to membership in the UN….
http://daccess-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N93/203/74/IMG/N9320374.pdf?OpenElement

In the resolution adopted by the general assembly of the UN from April 27th 1993 ( un doc no 47/225) is written:
- The General Assembly decides to admit the state whose application is contained in document A/47/876-S/25147 to membership in the UN…
- http://www.un.org/Docs/journal/asp/ws.asp?m=A%2FRES%2F47%2F225

Please note that the state’s name in the application in in the document s/21475 is: Republic of Macedonia

The fast that the general assembly decides that that member shall be PROVISIONALLY REFERRED TO WITHIN THE UN as “the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” does not mean by any standard that this country is accepted with that name..but only PROVISIONALLY REFFERED TO!

It is plain to see the difference …only if proper investigative journalism took place, a mistake such as this one, can only be done if you have not researched enough, or the reporter is biased.

http://www.makedonisch-griechisches-projekt.eu/

As lons as no big player like the US or EU without GR forces a party to change its position, this issue will not be solved.

Again: Greece has a problem, not Macedonia. They know whats their name. Greece has an identity problem!!!

What else do you want?

If Greece’s xenophobia (and I am sorry but there is no other word in my English vocabulary to describe their attitude to this problem of their making) is really about the world not giving enough “credit” to the Greece’s ownership of a historical name and geographical differentiation between Greece’s (newly renamed) northern territory to Macedonia – the solution is so simple and obvious – let Greece rename it’s northern territory to “Greek Macedonia”!

Then, the Greeks will have their “own” Macedonia, both geographically (which is probably the most accurate description of the region today anyway, although we call it “Aegean Macedonia”), and if they wish they can have it historically. We have no problems with that.

This is such a simple and a real solution – if Greeks really want a solution of THEIR “name dispute”!

And trust me, Macedonians of the Republic of Macedonia will allow for this to happen, because really, they are supposed to be asked for approval (if we use the Greek logic).

My fears, and everybody else’s living in Macedonia, is that – this is not the real problem Greeks want to solve.

The real problem is much more mean and hidden in the Greek’s fascistic agenda to completely eradicate Macedonian nation, language and history.

Well, my friends, no matter how civilised and understanding we are – this is NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Not even for the price of Republic of Macedonia not getting in EU and NATO!

Nobody in the world will agree to kill his dignity, identity, language and country in order to be accepted in a group of nations not as themselves, but as something new and forcibly changed.

European Union has lost it’s core values only because allowed for a single vote to veto anything that is progressive and natural.

WHAT IS PURPOSE OF SUCH A UNION IF IT DOESN’T ACCEPT YOU FOR WHO YOU ARE AND WHAT YOU ARE?